mijn Naam is Jonas...en ik ben duitser. Ik woon bijna all vijf jaar in Rotterdam...
But let me do this in English...I can get my point across better.
The discussion you guys are having here is an important one, under many different angles:
1. Why would people kite in obviously dangerous conditions? (offshore wind, strong current) I was at Maasvlakte yesterday. I kited outside the pond when the wind dropped and drifted off towards Ooosvoorne. This happened because I tried to help a friend who was in distress. The only reason I could rescue myself was fairly good local knowledge...and a bit of luck, to be fair.
The conditions yesterday were exceptionally, the wind dropped from around 20 knots to below 10 in under 15 minutes and, because of the spring tide, the current was stronger than usually. The apparent wind was blowing side-shore towards the Nature Reserve and the beach in Oostvoorne, not straight offshore. The current was pushing in the same direction, when the first 7 kiter got into distress.
I would not consider myself an idiot, and I believe that most of the kiters out there were taking a conscious and fair decision by the time they went out. Conditions looked manageable and the waves and wind only really kicked in badly after the first seven kiters were rescued.
2. Are the Germans the bigger idiots? I have my troubles with some of the tendencies and suggested solutions here in this threat. Do the Germans have to leave every injured snowboarder in Winterberg bleeding on the slope? Should the Spaniards leave every dutchy suffocate in their own vomit at Costa Brava? Does the Bergwacht not move out, if an avalanche took 10 tourists down, despite explicit warnings, not to leave the piste? I believe that we are better off acknowledging that we are all fellow sports men (and women, obviously). Suggesting to leave people drown because they misjudged the conditions is not exactly fair game. It was suggested to sell the missing board on Maarktplaats instead of returning it to the owner. Let me share one thought: If I was the guy missing his board, reading this comment, I would never ever listen to a local at the beach again, telling me that it is too dangerous to kite right now, whilst 100 people are on the water. However, if the guy who lost his board, got it back with an explanation on what has happened, what went wrong, and what to do better…and the strong advise to make a huge donation to KNRM, he would probably take that advise on board for the next time. Don´t be haters guys, you are also guests in other countries every now and then. Let´s look at us as kiters, and not Germans, Frisians, Brabanders… You don´t change our educate people by pointing fingers.
3. Will we avoid accidents with drastic fines? I think, in all fairness, guys… you are cutting yourself in your own flesh.
See me at the water...happy to talk about this...even in dutch...spreeken gaat beter dan schrijven!
Can you give me an answer to the following questions please?
1. Why did you choose the "Slufter" to go kiting?
2. Why do you think that there were only foreigners (as far as I know) to be rescued by the KNRM?
Hi Marc,
I can try: Slufter as such is an amazing spot...when I got on the water it was forecasted to be around 20 knots for the next 2 hours, later the wind would pick up drastically. I misjudged the current, I did not think the spring tide would have such a crazy effect. I only crashed the kite because I was helping a friend who did not know the spot as good.
The report speaks of one English gentlemen and I personally talked to to one Dutchman who was rescued. It is a long weekend in Germany, so there were more Germans around than on normal weekends, not even speaking about weekdays. I believe that lack of local knowledge led to this situation.
I believe, that we, as kitesurf-community or, in the wider sense, sportsmen, should help and educate each other.
Thanks Karel! If someone feels to have a chat about this over a beer or a coffee, stop by my van when you see me... White Renault Master with a roof rag
I do not want to be to negative but I think I have to... I think you did not even looked carefully at the wind forecast directions... It was predicted that the wind would pick up and change directions. Why would you than go on the water at the Slufter? I can not understand it al all!
Furthermore, I am a Slufter local myself. And unfortunate there are alot of German people that still go out. That why I am asking, as far as we know now only one Dutch people... I see a pattern.
But when I see you I am happy to talk about it offcourse.
By the way, respect that you tell the story here. It can be rough on Kitehigh with comments (also from my side).
The weather forecast for yesterday was spot on! Wind finder superforecast was correct, as was among other wind guru. Even the evening before it was like this in the forecast!
So there is no excuse! People died there who made mistakes at the Slufter. Small mistakes...with devastating consequences!
We are alle asking ourselves what will happen next? I am sure this widely spread news will end up in the evaluation reports of the Port of Rotterdam about closing the Slufter or not!?
No matter what your nationality is: Mormons, idioten, Arschlogs, coullions: bedankt, thanks, merci, Danke...
The weather forecast for yesterday was spot on! Wind finder superforecast was correct, as was among other wind guru. Even the evening before it was like this in the forecast!
So there is no excuse! People died there who made mistakes at the Slufter. Small mistakes...with devastating consequences!
We are alle asking ourselves what will happen next? I am sure this widely spread news will end up in the evaluation reports of the Port of Rotterdam about closing the Slufter or not!?
No matter what your nationality is: Mormons, idioten, Arschlogs, coullions: bedankt, thanks, merci, Danke...
it's morons not an idiotic belief which involves multiple wives and a immaginary friend that seams to be able to walk on water.
@Jan That would not explain the "invasion" in Brouwersdam!
The lack of local knowledge is spread throughout the whole kitesurf--community. Locals should be easy to approach for strangers, for advise or just a fun chat. This approach works extremely well with whitewater kayaking, diving and backcountry skiing. We should learn from them and not from the gol-surf-community!
That's normal practice indeed. But if the conditions are better elsewhere there are no locals to warn the foreigners about the dangers. Althoug, that should be a warning in itself don't you think?
@Marc It's a fact that the Dutch kite spots are huighly frequented by Germans and it's likely that you are lacking local knowledge, if you're only here twice a year.
@all And I'm not kidding here.... NW winds are pushing me straight to Oostvoorne... How do you define "offshore winds"? I don't want to be a troll here.... But I honestly judged the conditions differently. B @Evan By the sounds of it, there were many locals around who knew to report about German license plates. I spoke to dutchies and to some Germans whom I would consider "regulars"... No one shared any concerns. Maybe that's a kite surfer "too cool for school" thing.
@Marc I like a good argument and I'm not too shy to be in the line of fire. Plus: I think it helps the kite community in NL to move a little closer...and I'm including the duitsers as well as the belgiums!
@Jan That would not explain the "invasion" in Brouwersdam!
The lack of local knowledge is spread throughout the whole kitesurf--community. Locals should be easy to approach for strangers, for advise or just a fun chat. This approach works extremely well with whitewater kayaking, diving and backcountry skiing. We should learn from them and not from the gol-surf-community!
The invasion @ brouwersdam is explained by the fact that Renesse is nearby... Very famous amongst gremans. They even have German polizei working along with local Police on site during German national holidays.
Btw... It's a long swim down wind to oostvoorne even longer taking tidal effects in consideration.
The thing is that you will not reach the beach at oostvoorne on time or even at all. This is because when its low tide the water of oostvoorne and rockanje need to flow out and there is only way it can go, this causes a strong current in western direction (so out to sea). It's basically just a giant ripcurrent ('mui' in dutch)
Our beloved forum member WimT made national tv after nearly drowning in exactly these circumstances.
@Karel I'll take the events on board the next time I face similar conditions!
@all. Don't be haters... You'll be strangers to other spots eventually. Embrace it and be a role model...not a dick!
@Bart You're generalizing... The wind wasn't exactly offshore. Plus: you're cutting your own flash. Plus: "they" will keep coming...if you mean inexperienced kiters.
@Marc It's a fact that the Dutch kite spots are huighly frequented by Germans and it's likely that you are lacking local knowledge, if you're only here twice a year.
Jonas, I come here normally 1 or 2 times a week... So I know what I am talking about, I mean there are still more Dutch people the foreigners on normal kiteday but there is Always more trouble with foreigners that Dutch people... You get my point?
@all And I'm not kidding here.... NW winds are pushing me straight to Oostvoorne... How do you define "offshore winds"? I don't want to be a troll here.... But I honestly judged the conditions differently.
See the map that I did add... 3.5 km to swim in these conditions, are you kidding me?
@Marc I like a good argument and I'm not too shy to be in the line of fire. Plus: I think it helps the kite community in NL to move a little closer...and I'm including the duitsers as well as the belgiums!
Completely true, but thn the people DO HAVE TO LISTEN to the locals. And think, why are there not that much Dutch people here kiting in these conditions? (It's the same for Dutch kiters that go out on the water there).
I've tried, in more or less subtitle ways, to point the discussion away from nationalities. Let's agree on the following: - Germans are likely to have less knowledge about a spot than locals - you are more likely to be in trouble if you're not local, i.e. lack local knowledge - people have a tendency to be receivable for tips and criticism...brought in a respectful way from people they respect
The map is great, thank you. But the wind direction indicating a no go is NNW not NW. it might be a slight difference, but for me, there seemed to be a "PlanC" with the forcasted and prevailing conditions: drifting to Oostvoorne. 3,5 km roughly one hour considering drift and wind, unpleasant, but doable.
I have now learnt my lesson. But I'm not sure where, if not in this discussion, I could have learnt that NW winds have to be considered offshore @ Slufter. Is this indicated on the info-board?
Drifting purpously into the nature reserve, and you are wondering why we are a bit agressive?
The spot is under pressure because the nature is too much disrurbed by humans. So passing the border is a bin NO under all circumstances. Causing a rescue action inside the nature reserve is even worse than passing the border while kiting. Don't give the authorities ammunition to close this spot down by actions like sunday or crossing the border on a normal day!
Even with SW onshore winds and upcoming tide there is a risc the current pulls you inside the nature reserve! So don't be ignorant and state that there is no risk with NW winds. The arrow in the picture is 100% NW and not NNW.
Also good luck swimming with all your gear towards Oostvoorne, knowing that leaving your gear makes you virtually invisable for resque when you are pulled outside when the rip current don't pull you in the direction you anticipated. If this is the mindset of non-local kiters you are giving us all the reasons to be angry.
@ Jonas von Münchhausen: "drifting to Oostvoorne. 3,5 km roughly one hour considering drift and wind, unpleasant, but doable." ... slightly stupid, don't you think?
Drifting purpously into the nature reserve, and you are wondering why we are a bit agressive?
The spot is under pressure because the nature is too much disrurbed by humans. So passing the border is a bin NO under all circumstances. Causing a rescue action inside the nature reserve is even worse than passing the border while kiting. Don't give the authorities ammunition to close this spot down by actions like sunday or crossing the border on a normal day!
Even with SW onshore winds and upcoming tide there is a risc the current pulls you inside the nature reserve! So don't be ignorant and state that there is no risk with NW winds. The arrow in the picture is 100% NW and not NNW.
Also good luck swimming with all your gear towards Oostvoorne, knowing that leaving your gear makes you virtually invisable for resque when you are pulled outside when the rip current don't pull you in the direction you anticipated. If this is the mindset of non-local kiters you are giving us all the reasons to be angry.
@ stubborn Jonas.
Just ask the 2 guys (Dutch) who had endured the same ordeal in april 2014.... Nw winds +/- 30-35kts, conditions very similar clearing sky with small but very active cumulus nimbus, kite crashes and get released, were dragged in to open seas (4km West of Slufter) due to strong currents, found them selves in the water for over 4 hrs, one found unconcious in the water and the other lost conciousness just after being hoisted by the helicopter. Seriously hypothermic... So your ignorant point is??? Go ahead and die trying! Fool! Wondering why the agression? Here's why, stupid people killing the sport for people that do respect mother nature, conditions, locals and the fun of surfing for everyone and not being confronted with idiots who think they know best.
And because of dickheads that think the same way you do... The governement is seriously taking actions to close down the spot because of not only dangerous attitude of ignorant kiters, but specially because of entering the nature reserve.
Just immagine how the locals @ Fehmarn would react if we'd all would do the same there.
Sorry for the strong terms... But I'm seriously getting fed up of guys who come to visit the spot, know nothing about it and think they know best.
Don't get me/us wrong, I/we (I have a strong belief that I'm not the only one)do also get very pissed-off when Dutch riders think like wise, maybe even more so because they could have easier acces to all the spot info. I know it's not only Germans, but fact is that toghether with the Belgians and French they are responsable for the bigger share in crossing lines which are pretty well designated at the Slufter.
Happy winds and good waves, but regardless of what has been said, kudo's for being open!
« Laatste verandering: Oktober 04, 2016, 10:16:02 door Eagle-Jan »
Jonas simply states why he thinks there was no danger. He believed that worst case he would end up at Oostvoorne or Rockanje. He did not know about the current. He did not realize how far it really is (even without that current). And for sure he is not the only one.
And kudos for Jonas for being honest here and sharing this without going berzerk after all the ranting.
@Jonas Thanks for the efforts to get to Kitehigh and explain the reasoning from your side behind what has happend. Most people trie to hide when they make mistakes....
Your communications give the local kiters and NKV (Niederlandische Kitesurf Verein) a grip on what is going on in the minds of visitors that put themselves in these situations. As such we can act on it. Thanks! I think it would be a great help if you could get in contact with the NKV to see what you could do in terms of communications in the direction of other German kitesurfers visiting the Dutch spots.
You could: A. Make contributions on Kiteoase (or what is the name of the German kiteforum again?) explaining the situation for Dutch kitespots with regard to risks for closing the spot and getting yourself killed etc. Maybe indicate how visitors that don't adhere to the rules and common sense are viewed over here.
B. Recruit more German kiters that are open to help getting the rest in line so we can keep spots open.
We have to (re)start somewhere. And I would propose we put even more effort in educating ignorant visitors before we revert to molesting their cars in a final attempt to save our kitespots... I would very much prefer the education treatment over the molested car should I accidentally misbehave such that the ski pistes in Germany are threatenend with closing.
@Evan I don't see where I stated that I would drif into the protected area on purpose. I am being open about the assessment of the situation I made. I also acknowledged that this was off. At the same time I asked the question where this information would have been available. In your rant your ignore to answer this constructive and serious question.m
@Thijs Munchhausen is a figure that pathologically lied...I don't see how that's applicable to me or contributing this good discussion. Can you tell me why my evaluation was stupid....I obviously did not think it was.
@Jan Why do you call me ignorant? I'm facing the music here and I'm listening to your points. Let's understand that kitesurfing is a sport that involves certain risks. We can only mitigate risks if we understand them and learn about local conditions.
I was commenting to this, sorry that you are reading it as a rant. That was not my intention:
'And I'm not kidding here.... NW winds are pushing me straight to Oostvoorne... How do you define "offshore winds"? I don't want to be a troll here.... But I honestly judged the conditions differently. '
The winds were pushing you beyond the yellow bouys, straight into the nature reserve. If there was no reserve in between and the spot not under pressure because of that. Drifting to Oostvoorne would be a far less problem. Although the swirling current seems like you drift towards Oostvoorne at first, but after a while it bends towards Ouddorp/Stellendam.
@Evan I don't see where I stated that I would drif into the protected area on purpose. I am being open about the assessment of the situation I made. I also acknowledged that this was off. At the same time I asked the question where this information would have been available. In your rant your ignore to answer this constructive and serious question.m
@Thijs Munchhausen is a figure that pathologically lied...I don't see how that's applicable to me or contributing this good discussion. Can you tell me why my evaluation was stupid....I obviously did not think it was.
@Jan Why do you call me ignorant? I'm facing the music here and I'm listening to your points. Let's understand that kitesurfing is a sport that involves certain risks. We can only mitigate risks if we understand them and learn about local conditions.
Ok, I am apologizing for putting "ignorant" in this context.
Wouldn't a slight sence of stubbornty be more appropriate? Given the fact that no matter how many times folks here were trying to change your mind about what is offshore you kept going on ranting about what you think is "not exactly off-sfore" and "drifting to Oostvoorne" without taking in considaration that there is a nature reserve inbetween, which is under serious threat of being closed (disregard weather and current conditions on site) and that authorities don't differentiate between accidentally entering it or on purpouse... entering is entering, no matter what the circumstances are. That probably is what set us off... at least as far as I'm concerned it did.
But glad, we managed to "knock some sence in to you" and that you are open enough to try and understand what's going on here ( many don't even try, regardless of nationality) and why the "music" is sounding as it is.
About creating situational awarness: yes you would be of great help spreading the word (on German fb pages/fora) on what happend and what's going on here @ slufter (conditions, politics and that the locals might come across as grumpy pissed-off bastards but always ready to help a hand one way or the other). Anything helps is more than appreciated.
@JohanRotterdam, with a little research on the internet you could have know that it was offshore. You did find this forum afterwards so why not reading this before you start roadtripping to the beach? With the spotmaps on this forum showing all the wind directions and indicates on- offshore conditions, for that you don't even have to read Dutch, it's quite obvious. And when you google on "slufter kitesurfing" for example this forum is in the top 3 list, hard to miss. So with "I didn't know" or "foreigners with a lack of knowledge" is no argument! Yes, the locals do know more but everyone can find the necessary information about a kitespot that's needs to be known.
And about foreigners or unknown spots, when I'm going to a spot that's unknown to me, whatever the country, I do a little research first about the spot, conditions, winddirections, currents, possible dangers, etc. as already mentioned above. Just use the internet, mobile kitesurf apps and also ask the locals on the beach but locals are hard to find on the beach with offshore wind do... So from my opinion you and the rest should have been more prepared and again should have known that NW is offshore and that you should be aware of strong currents! Then you also had to known that if you had driven 3km further it was ok or just drive to spots as Ouddorp and Brouwersdam which are even better with NW.
With no preparation and already standing on the beach you also should have seen that it was offshore, just common sense! Did you take a look at the sign on the beach? But when I read your comment about drifting to Oostvoorne is doable then I'm afraid, with all due respect, your common sense is gone with the wind. With such argumentation not many offshore scenario's are left. To keep it simple, offshore is when you can't return to the same beach when something happens and Oostvoorne is not the same beach dude... And you don't want to make that trip in the sea! The water temperature is ok for now, but when it's getting colder this can end up pretty nasty.
Good to hear that you learned your lesson, but I'm afraid this will continue. This keeps repeating over and over for some reason and maybe some day with no happy end.. That's also a reason that some people are a bit aggressive. Same story, every time and again a lot negativity in the news about this spot and kitesurfing in general which are not needed when people did a little bit research first.
I think 3 basic things (at least) went wrong in the judgement of those kiters who decided that it was safe to go out at Slufter beach. Nationality may not have been necessarily the main cause, but a lack of knowledge / interest in local conditions and poor judgement seem to have caused not only a dangerous situation for those involved, but also a lot of unnecessary negative publicity. You mention that the circumstances were exceptional, but I think the point of many here is, that circumstances were not that exceptional for the North Sea coast in autumn.
1. Offshore The wind Sunday was probably at best side-shore for a short stretch at the Slufter. At best. Once you kite /or drift passed the Slufter beach you are basically lost. The same holds true if you go out a bit further from the Slufter beach, you are out of options rather quickly as is indicated above on the map. How you could have known this? Well, in order to get to your 'downwind safe beach' (Oostvoorne, Rockanje, Haringvliet dam?) you would have needed to cross a forbidden zone. This is well indicated. Since it is illegal to be there with a kite this should never serve as a backup plan. Moreover this has been discussed on this very message board (and other, even foreign boards) over and over again.
2. Currents You mention that the current was unexpectedly strong. This is surprising, since currents are known to be very strong in the Delta in front of Slufter beach, especially with extra high tide. This is due to the volume of water that is moving in and out the Haringvliet, through the rather narrow open dam. The currents do not automatically lead towards Oostvoorne as you may think. With tide going down (as was not the case at the moment of this rescue though) currents can bring you to open sea instead. There are excellent apps that show these currents and tides at the Dutch coast and I am sure you could find them on internet. In its magazine KNRM has discussed the currents of the Haringvliet Delta in depth (for sailors, but still an interesting read for kitesurfers as well). Moreover the currents at Slufter more in general (as a warning, explaining why Slufter is not for beginner-riders) have been discussed on this board more than once.
3. Wind Finally, you mentioned that the wind was exceptional. I don't think it was. I was at the other side of Maasvlakte II (Hoek van Holland to Kijkduin) and in that area the wind (including the downtime) corresponded almost spot on with the forecast. The thing is, that NW-NE with showers / rains are always a bit tricky on the North Sea coast, especially with strong gusty autumn winds. This in itself should trigger extra attention on your behalf. Never only rely on models like windguru / windfinder, but always also check regional or local interpretations of the models such as KNMI or Surfweer etc. These give you a lot of extra information on the conditions and safety. Finally, also check the wind again when you are at the spot. Sunday, you could have noticed that before the wind really picked up there were already a couple of windless 'shadows' (that cause kites to fall out of the sky rather suddenly) in or around the rain showers and you could have told that behind the front, wind would pick up suddenly. Moreover, you could have noticed that the direction of the wind was not stable.
Luckily the KNRM was there and they are doing a great job. They are normally not very judgemental (also problems of small yachts that they save are often caused by misjudgements of the sailors on them). The most important thing is of course that there were no personal injuries, but I understand very well that people on this board are extremely concerned about the behaviour of fellow kite surfers, because the Slufter as a kitespot is already endangered, so a mess like this should be avoided at all cost.
take care, Adriaan.
« Laatste verandering: Oktober 04, 2016, 19:22:09 door adriaanbrouwer »
Rapporteer
so we can keep spots open. 
